doublefacers

This was a post from Jonathan Kamm in the Ambitious Card Post. I moved it here.
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Also: under what scenario would a bad magic video on YouTube hurt
magic? Please give examples because I can’t think of any. I know you
mean well but the reality of the situation is it doesn’t hurt magic it
often helps. Everyone was worried when they came out with the Secrets
Revealed TV shows and what happened?It actually increased interest in
magic and now magic is more popular then ever.

Secrets are always available for those who are interested. But most
people just aren’t, and if they are, their ability to retain these methods is
short lived. Unless you have a real interest in magic and study and learn
these methods these secrets are forgotten days if not hours after they see
them. There are hundreds of thousands of bad magic videos on YouTube
and they all get lost in the sea of bad videos. The videos that get
watched are the good ones not the bad ones. If a video doesn’t peek our
interest in the first 7 seconds we move on. Nobody is going to sit and
watch a low quality webcam video of some kids hands fumbling around a
deck of cards.

These videos are not a problem and you certainly don’t need to waste
your time trying to put a stop to them. You accomplish nothing and
you look ridiculous in the process.

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I am not on a crusade to take down bad magic videos. I use them on this blog to stimulate a dialog about magic. Analyzing what people do when doing bad magic and I think it is a very valuable way to learn how to do good magic.

Secrets can be easily found on the internet, but you and I know that good magic isn't about the method alone. If you have a horrible personality, it won't matter what you do. The masked magician never bothered me and I agree with you on that aspect.

If you are telling me that I am wasting my time I would ask you the very same question, posting comments to my blog so much. Who is the fool? The fool himself or the people who follow him? And besides, showing bad magic videos is a favorite past-time of mine and to many other magicians.

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this is a test for putting paragraphs into this blog. I have been having trouble and hoepfully this fixes it.

I like cheese!! TAKE THAT TO THE BANK SENETOR! THE BLOOD BANK

Cheetah

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The difference between my criticism of you and your criticism of these videos is I am man enough to address you one on one. You on the other hand take videos that were not sent to you personally and you put them on your blog far away from where it was originally posted. Then without out the video authors knowledge or permission you and your friends sit and bash the content of the video. Is this how you think mature adults treat people? I'm here defending the people in the video mainly because you are not allowing them to defend themselves. I want to call you a bully but you are worse then that. A bully confronts the person. You hide from them and bash and make fun of them behind their back. How noble of you.

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YouTube is a meeting place. Think of it like a big cafeteria with many groups and cliques of people. There are artists of all kinds. In the groups of magicians there are beginners, hobbyists, watchers, workers, professionals you name it it's on YouTube. They all sit at their own table. Sure you could walk by and watch them do what they do without a problem. But to sit down at their table uninvited and start bashing what they are doing is a whole different ball game. Or taking your friends in the other room and making fun of their table is just immature and rude. They might just be a group of friends who like messing around with cards with no intention of ever becoming a pro. They enjoy pretending to be the professionals they admire. Anyone walking the cafeteria looking for cool magic and taking a moment to watch them will understand they are not professionals. Just kids having fun and they will move on to the professionals magic table. One of the kids at the first table may have a real interest in magic and take it upon himself to approach one of the guys at the professionals table and ask him to critique his video. This is healthy interaction between two people with similar interests. The pro going uninvited to the kids table and telling them they suck isn't.

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Why don't you start a fashion blog and go around secretly taking pictures of ugly dressers and post them on your blog so you can critique their clothes and make fun of them. Hey they went out in public that way. It's their fault right?

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Please use the reply button. No point in keeping this conversation seperate. Tell me if i fixed the paragraph thing too.

Back to topic.

Apperently you weren't man enough to address this face to face when you posted on the thread about my blog on The Magic Cafe.

I don't know what else to say except on the main post. Let me put it another way. Why are you so forgiving about people putting bad magic videos online? I am sure you respect the art enough to give a shit about people ripping it apart.

This whole bully thing is just plain stupid. As I stated, I use them for a purpose. I don't just bash them for NO REASON. If I had something bad to say about George W. Bush do I need to call him up and get permission? If I talk negativly about the Iraq War, Do I need to discuss with the president first?

And these videos ARE PUBLIC. Read my main post for God sakes. I am tired of repeating myself.

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USE THE FUCKING REPLY BUTTON

What is their fault? This post makes no sense.

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this is all the same topic by you. please use the reply button.

I understand people who are just in it for the hobby. But again, there are many ways to share with friends and fellow magicians other than a public video site. What you are saying is that it is okay to show a horrible performance of magic on youtube. Where are your standards for the art? When people put videos of half baked shit on youtube where non-magicians can just search and look at it, that's where I have a fucking problem.

Do you go out and perform half-baked idea during paid gigs? Of course not. Then why is there no standards in magic online?

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Here, allow me to extrapolate your flawed analogies to their ultimate conclusion so that some sense of finality may be reached and Tony can get back to sharing with those of us that are here because we want to be, and because we want to read what he has to say. Okay, here goes: "Why not just walk up to people on the street and punch them? They deserve it, right? I mean, they left their house!" "Why not electrify doorknobs of an orphanage? Stupid orphans shouldn't have wanted to leave the house, right?!" "Why not just lop the heads off of babies that have the audacity to poke their head out of the bassinet?" Okay? That seemed to be where you were going with your ever-escalating argument, so, yeah, I finished that for you. Are we good now? Please, move on. If you don't like what Tony is doing, nobody is forcing you to come to this blog. There are plenty of other places you can troll.

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I am man enough that is why I am here.

There have always been bad magicians out there. Youtube has been around for years now and the bad magic is there for everyone to see. How has it hurt magic? Magic is more popular then ever. YouTube is more popular then ever.

To see bad magic on YouTube.
1. You first have to be interested in watching magic.
2. You need a computer
3. You need to know how to use the computer
4. You need an internet connection
5. You need to know what YouTube is.
6. You need to know how to search for specific items on YouTube
7. Here is the big one! You have to purposely search for bad magic videos and once you find them you have to sit through them.

A bad magic video is not magic. It's simply a guy messing around with a deck of cards. Nothing magical happens.

If as a performer you perform stellar magic. Then the bad magic you see in these videos should not even come close to resembling what you do. You can let an entire room full of people watch a bad performance of an ACR and I will come in and blow them away with an ACR performed correctly.

Magic performed correctly works. Incorrectly it doesn't. The best way to fight the bad magic in the world is to make your magic better. I have no problem with the kids performing badly on YouTube. Hey we were all that bad at one time. It's cute.

What I hate are the professionals who perform badly and don't take the time to master their art. I can see why they would be upset over these bad magic videos because they very closely resemble their own performances. Instead of improving themselves they find it easier to blame the kids. I am not saying this is you Tony but there are people out there like that.

If you do great magic then the bad magic does not effect you. This is why you don't see professionals complaining about youtube or exposure. Teach by example. If you do great magic others will see this and want to be like you.

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You feel that these videos on YouTube are out in public and therefore you have the right to critique them. There is no law against it but you look like an ass doing it. Just like someone who took pictures of people and made fun of how they were dressed because "Hey they went out in public that way"

It would not be fair of someone to make fun of the way people look or dress and its not fair to make fun of the way someone performs especially without letting them know you are doing it. Which is what you are doing here.

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We are going in circles here. All I can say is in the main post. Take it or leave it. Sorry we can't conclude in some agreement, but that's life.

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Ahh thank you! you have successfully made my point. Nobody forced me to come to this Blog but I chose to do so. I am criticizing the work here and that pisses you off. How do you think the creators of these videos feel? Even worse you do it behind their back without letting them defend themselves.

Nobody forces anyone to watch these bad videos but Tony has chosen to troll Youtube for them and bash them. If you don't like the videos. DON'T WATCH THEM.

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Alright. Your posts are going no where on this subject.

This is the final say on this. Anything else will be deleted because I have chosen to make the blog like this and all your bitching isn't really going to change anything.

Critique is important in the growth of any Art. I can critique the original handling of the Elsmely count because honestly, it isn't good unless you do it more naturally from the dealing grip. Do I need to dig up Alex and debate with him? Hope not, I don't know where he is buried.

This whole bullying thing makes no sense. I have told you many times I use the videos as examples of what not to do. I think that is very important.

This is done. Anymore posts about this subject from you will be deleted. I have to lay down the law. Like you said, It's my fucking blog and if you don't like the blog. DON'T READ IT.

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Youtube is a place for everyone not just excellent performers. You will see bad singers, bad actors, bad jugglers, bad performers of all kinds. This does not hurt any art. If anything it makes people appreciate the art when performed well. I'm done and I hope you post this response.

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Well put my friend.  What I think is even more fascinating then the mere existance of these half-assed videos, are the posts that praise them, and the defensive comments towards the real magicians who call the videos as they are, pure shit.I don’t think that the majority of these youtube posters are doing it on purpose, but that they are just so new to magic in general, that they don’t fully understand what Magic is, or should be.  They are searching for their easy road to fame, and will do anything to reach it and protect it.They aren’t into magic for the long run, they are in it cuz it is a fad, and it has a following.  This following allows them to ignore the only truly based comments that tell them their technique is flawed, presentation is bad, and arrogance is unwarranted.   A sad world the interwebs is…

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I’m with Eric on this. Magic in the online world (especially since the insurgence of Youtube) has suffered a bad rep because of its decline in standards – no one knows what the ‘bar’ is, so they just keep it at a minimum and then limbo right underneath it. That’s why I feel that we need things like your blog to keep these people in check – not just to say ‘hay guyz thees videos am made of suhck’, but to call them out on their bullshit and point out exactly what it is that makes these videos such eyesores to watch. Which, I feel, is completely fair given the multiple levels of self deception they’ve put themselves under – first by convincing themselves that they’ve perfected a move after only a couple of days, secondly by thinking it’s good enough to be put on video, and thirdly by reviewing the takes (if there was even more than one) of the footage they shot and then going “man, I am awesome.” In this age of anonymity, comments such as ‘wow’ and ‘awesome! 5/5 man’ don’t mean anything anymore… it’s the receiving of (constructive) criticism from strangers that’s important. Because in the long run, it’s better to be told what you did wrong online than to perform for people in public and have them muttering ‘what the fuck?’ Just my two cents on the subject.

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Here is the difference between my criticism of you and your criticism of the people in the videos. I am man enough to confront YOU one on one. I am talking to YOU about your actions. You on the other hand find videos that were not sent to you personally and put them on your site away from where the video was originally posted. Then you and your friends bash the people in the video with out telling them. Without letting them defend themselves. This is how you seem to think mature adults treat other people. Why don’t you start a fashion Blog and go around taking pictures of people without their permission and post it on your blog and comment on how ugly these people are. Hey it’s their fault they went out in public that way right? How would you feel if you found out people had been on the fashion blog for months making fun of you without your knowledge?

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I have enjoyed reading Tony's thoughts and insights since finding this blog. I see nothing wrong with what is going on here. It's no different that anything a magazine, newspaper, or television show would do. I guess it's all a matter of opinion, and mine is that I like the site, and will continue to check it daily for updates. If you don't like it, don't read it. It's as simple as that.

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Jonathan, I think you're missing the whole purpose of this whole blog. The whole idea here is to help magicians, not to hurt them. What Tony is doing here is not only showing us what a good performer is, but showing what makes him a good performer.

You can't learn what a good performer does, and why he is a good performer without knowing what he's doing. Tony is showing people what good performers avoid in order to show people ho to develop into better performers by avoiding these flaws. You can't have a no smoking sign without a cigarette; you have to show whats wrong in order to avoid it.

"Why don't you start a fashion blog and go around secretly taking pictures of ugly dressers and post them on your blog so you can critique their clothes and make fun of them. Hey they went out in public that way. It's their fault right?"

Have you ever been to a corner store? A deppaneur? Have you ever seen the magazines there? THATS WHAT THEY'RE FULL OF. Hell, it's not just a blog, people are SELLING that. Ever watched TV? TLC? The fucking show called "WHAT NOT TO WEAR"? I mean, come on man, you're trying to prove a point, but your arguments are consistently full of flaws. Let's start thinking things through before we say them ok?

"Youtube is a place for everyone not just excellent performers. You will see bad singers, bad actors, bad jugglers, bad performers of all kinds. This does not hurt any art. If anything it makes people appreciate the art when performed well. I'm done and I hope you post this response."

And yet people tell these bad singers they suck. And the bad actors as well. So your point is….?

Not to mention you're forgetting a very important feature on youtube in which ANYONE can see what pages link to their videos. The statistics & data section on every video pages not only allows the video owner to see where they've been linked from, but also how many views have been from that site.

So if they really are concerned about who's talking about their video and what not, they can always check that out. And as Tony's said before, if they don't want people talking about their video, there's always a private option on YouTube as well as various other sites. Notice that beside all your videos it says "Broadcast: Public."

Merriam-Websters English Dictionary defines public as "exposed to general view." So there you go. Deal.

Again, it's been said once, and I'll say it again. If you dont like what Tony's doing, feel free to leave. No one has asked you to be here. It's your choice not to criticize these videos in hopes of helping others, and it's Tony's choice to do so if he wishes.

Cheers,
Lucas

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Because magazines are mean, cruel and rude to celebrities I guess its ok for us to do the same to our fellow magicians. The people who tell bad singers and bad actors they suck are mean cruel people. Is this who you want to be? When any artist starts out in his field they are going to be bad. If its a performance art the first true test of your abilities will be that first live performance in front of strangers. This is where we learn how good we are. This is something we choose to do. We put our selves in front of hopefully a paying audience and we hope they like us. Its our choice and we expect feedback. If I am a young magic hobbiest who is just having fun with cards and having fun with my friends and have never performed in front of a audience and never plan to. Why do I need to be good? I am just having fun. Me and my friends have fun sharing videos on YouTube. Then here comes some adult telling me I suck and I am hurting magic. Are you kidding me? I am not a magician I am just playing with my friends. If me playing with my friends is hurting you as a professional magician then it is you who sucks as a magician.

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Jonathan, again, you fail to not only address the important parts of my reply, but you also fail to see the point of what Tony is doing.

Tony isn't telling these people that they're hurting magic. He's not telling them they even suck. Hell, he's not even talking directly to them. Hes using them as an example. Granted of an example of what not to do, but if they would take his advice, it would help them IMPROVE. He's pointing out the flaws in their performances in order to help others. It's called learning from your mistakes. Ever heard of it. I guess you decided not to read the part of my reply that said

"You can't learn what a good performer does, and why he is a good performer without knowing what he's doing. Tony is showing people what good performers avoid in order to show people ho to develop into better performers by avoiding these flaws. You can't have a no smoking sign without a cigarette; you have to show whats wrong in order to avoid it."

"Because magazines are mean, cruel and rude to celebrities I guess its ok for us to do the same to our fellow magicians. The people who tell bad singers and bad actors they suck are mean cruel people. Is this who you want to be?"

Again, you fail to address the important points in my reply. Have you ever seen the show "What not to wear"? "Queer Eye For The Straight Guy"? There are myriads of shows that are about fashion and what not that are there to teach people how to dress and how to better themselves. That's how the world works. You learn from your mistakes, you learn from others' mistakes. They say that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it– why? Because they were unable to learn from their mistakes. This is what SCIENCE and the modern world is based off of; learning from past experience and mistakes. Without learning from mistakes and flaws, we would never have created safety features and our world would be in shambles.

Learning from your mistakes and others' mistakes is a vital part of growing up and advancing ourselves. So when you're ready to do this; grow up and learn to accept and advance other people and their opinions, feel free. Until then, simply don't read the blog, it's that simple.

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I don't know any teacher in the world that would say that choosing one individual and having them stand in front of the class and pointing out their flaws is a valid or accepted teaching technique. It is a valid way to traumatize someone. Make them feel insecure, unaccepted, a failure a loser. If you guys truly are doing this to help magic then you would help these kids learn by pointing out the things they are good at and giving them encouragement. But it appears to me the reason you choose to do this is to make yourself feel better about your own insecurities. Don't pick on these people. Either give them encouragement or leave them alone and work on improving yourself.

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The people on those shows choose to be on those shows. Tony is taking random people and using them as examples without there permission. That is a huge difference. He is making them stand in front of the class and pointing out their flaws in front of everyone. With out their consent. That's defamation of character.

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The people on those shows choose to be on those shows. Tony is taking random people and using them as examples without there permission. That is a huge difference. He is making them stand in front of the class and pointing out their flaws in front of everyone. With out their consent. That's defamation of character.

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Jonathan, don't try and say things you know nothing about. Just saying "That's defamation of character" does not make it so. Being someone who's currently completing a dec in both law and sciences, I think I would know what defamation of character is. And you know what? THIS ISNT DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER.

Why? Well lets see…BECAUSE IT'S TRUE. A statement, even if it harms your reputation, is not defamation of character if it is based on truth. Also, there's something called "fair comment" which gives us the right, no matter how harshly, to comment on issues of interest so long as these comments are honest and non-malicious.

What Tony is doing here is obviously not malicious as he has the intent to help rather then hinder.

Secondly, by posting these things on public domain, they become subject to public dispute and distribution so long as he's not profiting from it. So he's perfectly in the right to comment and use these things without prior consent from the creator.

Next time you try and pull things out of your ass like that, try and know what you're talking about. Do your research, and come back with some valid points.

Cheers,
Lucas

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And again, you contradict yourself.

"Ahh thank you! you have successfully made my point. Nobody forced me to come to this Blog but I chose to do so. I am criticizing the work here and that pisses you off. How do you think the creators of these videos feel? Even worse you do it behind their back without letting them defend themselves."

Only to proceed and say that he is "having them stand in front of the class and pointing out their flaws"

So which is it? Is he making them sit there while he talks about them? Or is he doing it behind their backs?

And again, your whole argument is based upon the fact that these kids are just doing it for fun and with friends. If this is so, i highly doubt that they're on this site reading what Tony has to say in the first place.

Your whole argument is flawed. Give it up, and leave. No one really cares if you like it or not.

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Jonathan, you keep pulling out this "I'm older then you" card that has no validity whatsoever in this argument. Good for you, you're old, that's nice, but it has nothing to do with what were talking about. No matter what your age, we've all had people criticize our work on both positive and negative ways.

And again Jonathan, you keep trying to prove your point with analogies. Thing is…they have to hold up to work. Saying "The class room was an analogy" just admits to the fact that your argument is based off of a bunch of faulty analogies. Kind of like the friend burning himself analogy you just tried to use to fix the last broken one:

"Lets say you see your friend pick up the frying pan and he burns himself. You now know not to pick up the frying pan. This is a valid learning process and there is nothing wrong with that. Where it becomes wrong is showing a film of your friend burning himself and not telling him that you are showing the world what an idiot he is."

Alright, so for me to take the video and put it up in order to show what an idiot he is is wrong. Granted, I'll give yo that. BUT IF MY FRIEND PUTS UP THE VIDEO AND I LINK PEOPLE TO IT ITS PERFECTLY OK. He made the conscious decision to put this material into public domain, and as an effect, is going to have people critique it. His fault.

"Its obvious Lucas you are very young."

Really? It's obvious how? Because I openly admitted the fact that I'm currently acheiving two decs? Or because I disagree with you? Because after all, judging by your logic, your age makes you always right…Sounds kind of familiar to what people always accuse teenagers of thinking eh? Grow up.

Personally, if Tony decides to use one of my videos as an example, I give him free rein. Why? Because I, unlike some other people obviously, have learned to take criticism. Sure, I'll argue my point, but when it comes down to it, I'll take the criticism and learn from it. If you cant learn from others, you can't learn at all. Obviously Jonathan, with all your years of experience, you still havn't learned to accept others' opinions or critique. That's ok, it'll come.

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The class room was an analogy. No matter how you spin it what Tony is doing here is wrong. Learning by our own mistakes is a valid learning process. Learning by watching others mistakes is also a valid learning process. But calling attention to somebody's mistakes is rude and uncalled for. Lets say you see your friend pick up the frying pan and he burns himself. You now know not to pick up the frying pan. This is a valid learning process and there is nothing wrong with that. Where it becomes wrong is showing a film of your friend burning himself and not telling him that you are showing the world what an idiot he is. There is no way you can spin that and make it ok. That is incredibly mean. Its obvious Lucas you are very young. I'm willing to bet I have been performing magic professionally longer then you have been alive. I have made many more mistakes in life then you have and I have learned from them. I have made the mistake of pointing out someone's flaws without them asking me for criticism and I learned never to do that again. I have also been on the other side. I have had people criticize my work when they were not asked and I know how rude I thought it was for them to do such a thing. You may have not learned these life lessons yet Lucas. But give it time. As you grow up you realize how important it is to care about how other people are effected by your actions. You can't go around saying and doing whatever you feel like. Eventually someone is going to get hurt. I can't imagine any of the people in these videos finding out what is going on here and not being upset. Upsetting these people should really bother you. I am not sure why it doesn't.

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Whow Mr. Kamm you're quite the ignorant person aren't you?
It's impressive how often people can show you that you dont make any sense at all,
yet you refuse to give in or even think about the things that others write.
All I see is you repeating your same old arguments over and over again which is kind of sad.
I think I'll just leave you with a little example of how wrong your theory is.
Even Dai Vernon (yes THE one which even would probably listen to) once said something along the lines of "Only a bad performance of Magic can hurt it" which is the thing Tony and the others are trying to proof here.
Vernon also critizised bad magicians (beginners too) quite agressively because he had a very well thought of theory on that.
Either these persons quit magic because they cant stand criticism which they would have to accept if their goal was to become a good magician or they accept the criticism and work on their sleights the way they should.

(Don't mind my germanenglish. You'll get what i mean.)

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Saying the person in the video is hurting magic is not true. A young boy posting a video of himself playing around with cards in no way hurts magic. A case of defamation of character could certainly be argued. But I never meant to bring up legal issues I meant defaming in a moral or ethical sense.

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My age is not important but my life experience is.

Please read this it explains exactly how I feel about you guys criticising others.

http://www.personal-development.com/chuck/constru…

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See if this works

http://www.personal-development.com/chuck/constructivecr...

I also linked it to my name above.

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Jonathan, you consistently decide to ignore all of what I've said, so I'm not quite sure what more I can tell you. Time after time, I point out the flaws in your argument and you just decide not to take them into account at all. Youve set up a straw man argument here and it just doesn't work.

Tony isn't going to these people and telling them they're wrong. He isn't going and giving THEM any unwanted critique. He's using them as an example. That statement within itself completely destroys any validity the argument the site you linked to held. Not to mention the fact that the site is written by a speech writer; someone who actually knows nothing of the subject he's talking about here.

Again, you're setting up a straw man argument which doesn't actually carry any weight what so ever.

So how about before you read this, re-read everything that's been said and actually take the time to think about it, because judging by all of your responses, you're not actually reading or listening to anything that's been said.

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Lucas,
My argument isn't flawed it makes perfect sense if you chose to see it. As the gentleman in this article explains "If you're out to beat a dog, you're sure to find a stick." which means if your goal is to criticize, malign, ridicule, scorn, blame, insult, or belittle then you are going to find fault in even the most upstanding person. On the other hand, if you’re out to befriend a dog, you’re sure to discover its desirable traits. Since we find what we look for, let’s look for the positive. This way everyone benefits.

He also mentions "When we criticize another, we do not expose them, we expose ourselves. We broadcast our own weakness and smallness." If you are a strong happy confident person you do not criticize others. There is no reason to. People who criticize others are unconfident, insecure people. In order to feel good themselves they belittle others. Ask any psychologist or therapist and they will tell you its true.

He also explains: Does this mean all criticism is bad? Not at all. But it should be used in two cases only. First, parents, teachers, supervisors, and others in authority have the obligation to correct the faults of those they are responsible for. Second, we can offer our advice to friends and others who ASK for it. But don’t offer it unless they request it.

I repeat when they ASK!

Tony is criticizing these videos without their permission, without them ASKING. He claims it is to help these people but he isn't even telling them he is doing it. So how are they to be helped as he suggests by the criticism if he is not telling them. What he in fact is doing is pointing out faults of others just to help him with his own insecurities. There are no other reasons for it. We criticize others to feel better about ourselves end of story. Unsolicited criticism of others only hurts it never helps.

The gentleman in the article explains it best here:

Here’s what Charles M. Schwab (1862 ~ 1939) had to say on the subject, "In my wide association in life, meeting with many and great men in various parts of the world, I have yet to find the man, however great or exalted his station, who did not do better work and put forth greater effort under a spirit of approval than he would ever do under a spirit of criticism."

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Jonathan, do I need to repeat myself again? READ WHAT I SAY. THIS IS A STRAW MAN ARGUMENT. Let me repeat myself Jonathan, because obviously you didn't read it last time:

"Tony isn't going to these people and telling them they're wrong. He isn't going and giving THEM any unwanted critique. He's using them as an example. That statement within itself completely destroys any validity the argument the site you linked to held."

TADA! Your whole argument is based flawed view of what Tony is doing; like i said, a straw man argument. Maybe you dont know what that is though, so I'll google it for you:

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position. While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted."

There you go, from the first hit; Wikipedia. See that last sentence there? "While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted"

Your argument holds no weight what so ever. What do you not understand about that? I mean, I can't simplify it much more.

P.S. I read your article before my last response Jonathan, and like I said, it's written by a speech-writer; someone who knows nothing of which he speaks. Bring me a valid source, and base it off of what Tony's really doing, not this straw man argument you're creating and then you might hold some weight here.

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Lucas,

All I see is anger in every post you make you are not trying to understand anything.

Let me ask you a simple question.

How do you think these people would feel upon finding out their video is being used on this site as an example of what not to do?

Please just answer the question.

I already know how Vinny Marini felt and I showed him how to turn off the ability to embed his video on this blog so it no longer is available for the people here to criticize. I think the others would feel the same way. What do you think?

Please answer the question.

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Yes but magic is an art of secrets. Magicians have much more risk of messing up for it can ruin the art for spectators and other magicians alike. What spectator (besides Hecklers) like when a magician screw up, and if they figure out an effect, the next magician they see they will respect less.
Tatanka

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Jonathan, personally, all I see in your posts are evasive tactics that completely try and avoid the issue at hand time after time when you are proved wrong. But that could just be me.

I'm not angry Jonathan, if that's how you take my posts, you're sadly mistaken. What I'm trying to do is get you to actually reply to what i say, because time after time, I have broken your argument and shown you that it doesn't hold up, and yet you keep trying to build upon what is already a broken foundation.

Once again, if you had read my posts, you would find that I have answered your question:

"Personally, if Tony decides to use one of my videos as an example, I give him free rein. Why? Because I, unlike some other people obviously, have learned to take criticism. Sure, I'll argue my point, but when it comes down to it, I'll take the criticism and learn from it. If you cant learn from others, you can't learn at all. Obviously Jonathan, with all your years of experience, you still havn't learned to accept others' opinions or critique. That's ok, it'll come."

Do with it what you will, I've already answered your question. Now how about you actually respond to something I've actually said for once? It helps in a debate to do so.

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You haven't answered this question:
How do you think these people would feel upon finding out their video is being used on this site as an example of what not to do?

The question you have answered is:
"Would you allow Tony to post your videos and critique them?"

I am asking you how you think these people will feel? Your answer should be along the lines of "Happy", "Sad", "Angry", "Thankfull" …ect. So please re-read the question and answer the question. Stop avoiding it. I could ask a child this question and they could answer it. Why can't you?

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Here is an example of the comments your friend Tony makes on these videos.

"Does this kid really think he fools anyone? Why does he publish this onto You-tube? Why does he even film it? This stupidity is what ruins magic as an art. Knowing the method does not mean you have mastery over it. The only reason I think the performance is bareable is because I really do think this person has serious arthritis, the mental toughness of a 3rd grader"

Lucas,
So according to you you would be ok with your friend Tony making comments like this about you? You wouldn't be hurt? Seriously? Some friend you got there.

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Both Jonathan Kamm and Vinny Marini have one thing in common. They both fucking suck at magic.

i can’t think of two worse magicians. they should start a magic act – douchebag and shitstain.

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